RichJohnson

Old MSgt

DARN!! I've been going by these M3 books with color pictures... I guess when they repainted'em for museums they just used any OD they found... I should have researched more (or asked YOU.)

Thanks Rich.

Mike

RichJohnson

tch2000

tankme

The Sheridan has served from Vietnam to the Gulf War. It could have any camo pattern from solid olive drab to MERDC schemes to modern NATO schemes.

RichJohnson

Microbacchus

This is a great post that helped me a lot in the past when it came to painting a Sherman. However this day I found some contradicting info, that might be worthful for discussion.

Mike Starmer wrote: "In 1943 a Joint Services Committee of Navy, Air Force, Army and British representatives met to establish a common colour system. Olive Drab now became established properly for all services. That colour became No.319 Olive Drab in U.S.Amy Spec 3-01, which is lighter and slightly more green than before. I have a swatch of that. This colour was destined not to be much used. The USAAF were abandoning camouflage on aircraft whist the British still required it. There was so much No.41 in stocks that 319 was not used on aircraft at all. For the Army, although a few new vehicles produced during very late 1944 and into 1945 did have this colour, the existing stocks were such that No.9 was still being applied until the end of the war."

According to Shadock: "The Fisher Body Division of General Motors Corporation was the sole manufacturer of M4A3E2 Jumbos. It produced 254 units between May and July 1944."

If we can all agree on that July is not very late in the year, than the paint found under the bogies of Cobra King is not OD ANA319 but OD No.9/22.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance!

RichJohnson

I would be surprised if that were true. Zalouga who wrote that article on the history of OD is probably the best researched man in OD having gone through the US archives and studdied many vehicles in restoration at museums to observe original paint layers. I would want to see some corroborating evidence that 319 wasnt used until that late in 44. I could see a slow change early in 44 but would be surprised if every tank plant in the US had enough no22 to last most of the year. Supplies were used up quick and while normal parts were typically used until exhausted the Army seemed a little anal about getting their paint right.
Indeed color photos of tanks in ETO show them to be darker than MTO tanks when you can find them. I would think also, that all the tanks in the UK that were refitted with all the applique armor and the M31C gun mount as required for deployment for D Day would have been totally repainted and likely had 319 by that time. But I am speculating based on what I have read, thats all.

FYI I have found Model Car Works make spot on 319 and No22. Though their 22 is glossy but when sprayed with a flattener it takes on that brighter green with a slight tint of brown in it. Its just very thin paint and goes very quickly.

I would say that Jumbos likely were still painted 319 based on what I have seen. Infact Cobra King was repainted in 319 for the museum of the US Army.
They have seen the colors and still claimed that the base color under the bogie was 319 but it sure does look alot lighter in color than 319. But it sure doesnt look like No22..... So who knows

The folks that painted Cobra King that glossy green color have since told me that was the only paint they had while doing the restoration and that it is not correct, it was repainted 319, a darker color, not that glossy green. I wish I could go back and edit that post photo and add that disclaimer.

RichJohnson

In a further update to Olive Drab color, I had a perfect mixture formula in Tamiya to get 319 and this morning I sprayed a model and it wasnt right. It was too brown. I couldnt figure out what I did wrong. I remixed and sprayed again. Still it was too brown. Finally, I just sprayed the tamiya OD on my primer without mixing colors. It doesnt match my old sample card of straight tamiya OD. Its lighter and browner. NUTS! These are new bottles with a new warning sticker on top. Tamiya changed their formula. Now Im really mad.....

Tanque

I like your mixed OD Rich

I'm using Klass Kote on my ArmorTek M3 Lee and I got them to make me some ( best guess) German Panzer Grey and dark yellow... I painted my Kaelble trucks with it. The stuff is expensive as all get out but it's tough. I used to use "Perfect" (Chevron)
paint for my gas models but that is long, loooong out of production. I plan to use it on some of my 1/10 gas powered armor cause KK is fuel resistant...

I know the OD isn't correct for my M3 but I like it anyway...

Microbacchus

Thanks for the fast anwser and the tips I painted an 1:35 Stuart with Tamiya LP-28 this weekend, the result is a bit too green (I made photos but can't post them here yet, I'm new in this forum). It is the pure lacquer version of the XF-62 paint.

Mike Starmer is a British historian and an expert on British ww2 colours, he wrote the UK armour part for AK's RealColors book and Zaloga wrote the US chapter. I will try to double check his statement on A/N 319 use. In that book Zaloga writes that A/N 319 is only a rename for OD QM No.22 therefore as colours they are identical. However the formulation of the paint was changed, so in practice A/N 319 can and do differ from QM22.

Another source mentions this A/N 319 issue here: 69.5.4.225/od_mvg_odpaint. p h p (sorry for breaking it, but cannot post links yet ). "1943: A/N 319 Olive Drab Lustreless, very similar to QM Color No. 22 but different chemical composition. Not commonly used for vehicles." "1944: A/N 319 Olive Drab
Improved moisture seal, slight gloss" The 1944 entry refers to David Doyle's Standard Catalog of US Military Vehicles Appendix 2. Unfortunately I don't have that book, so it is not clear if it is a change in A/N 319 formulation or what.

Jim Gilmore: "I would note that although it was stated that this #319 paint is for vehicles....research and Govt. documents show it as being for Ordnance items....specifically for bombs as it is a IR reflecting paint." Not clear is he is talking about the USAAF or the general case. (The USAAF rejected this paint because of its infrared reflecting properties.)

The Cobra King paint was a big surprise to me either (prior to the AFTA photos the OD in my mind was much darker, less green and much more browner). The possibility that it might be OD QM 22 is shocking, I painted all my early war models in a darker, brownish colour Btw Anyone has a similar reference photo for 22? something similar to the Cobra King restoration.

RichJohnson

As for cobra king, I’m wondering if it’s a green primer... who knows at this point because it doesn’t seem to match 22 or 319.
The name change was supposed to be just that but at the same time PPG changed the formula of Pigments and finish to change it from a lusterless to a semigloss or satin finish. Just the change in finish alone will make the color appear a bit darker but the 319 had nearly no brown in it compared to the slight brown in the 22. The 22 had the infamous pig slop color while the 319 was a darker green of OD.
MCW makes these colors to the exact color chips from PPG archives and they are quite good.
the 22 is actually n ugly color, think a faded Od with some orange added. But that was based on the original colors of black and ochre.
I will try to get a photo of the two side by side for this thread.

Maccrage

Rich, any updates on the hunt for a proper OD?

RichJohnson

I had a good mix for 319 using Tamiya but they changed their OF formula in 2021 and then it became unavailable.
straight out of the bottle as close as can be
OD no9 /22 used 1939 to early 44
MCW Laquer no9/22 -sprays glossy needs to be flat
MCW Enamel FS 23070 sprays flat

OD319 1944 and 45
MCW Laquer 319 sprays glossy. See my M32 build thread.
do not use their enamel, it’s like a forest green color

inwont post the Tamiya formula again until I get some of their new OD and test again to see what it’s like.

Maccrage

Thank you sir. Looks like the QM#22 is only available direct from them.

Maccrage

I'm going to pick up the 319 while I'm at it. I want to repaint Connie. She's in your original 1-1-1 Tamiya mix.


Compared to the OD that Mato used on the M10A1.

RichJohnson

The Laquers are very thin and ready to spray and they spray nice.
The enamels are thicker, but beware dont get the 319 enamel. I just dont understand how that color got so messed up in his line. My LHS carries the Enamel line. I had to go online to get the Laquers. And I really do like them. The Laquer no9 /22 is glossy so it takes a bit of dusting with a dull coat to flatten it out but it looks pretty good and close to the WWII metal sherman recognition model I have that is No9 and lived in it box its whole life

Elwarpo

If you are curious, I actually have the official US color chips from 1941 and 1943. I can post them up here. I am also a paint chemist so color has always been an interest for me.One thing to note is the oil based paint would yellow over time causing color shift. Another issue is multiple paint suppliers across the country had pigment shortages and would approximate the color based on what they could get. The green paint is difficult to make now since we use phthalocyanine green pigment, and organic pigment, while they used chrome green. The color was a mix of Chrome green, yellow iron oxide (ochre), lead oxide (white), black (either carbon black or black iron oxide) and red iron oxide (rust). Also depending on the availability of paint raw materials, roughness of the surface, thickness of the paint, application method... The gloss of the paint would change to the point of being flat to high gloss. Since gloss affects how we perceive color, the color on different vehicles would change. When I started out in paint in the 80s at Benjamin Moore, the lab manager used to make paint in the 40s. He would tell me stories of how they were so short of paint, they would wave off color differences as long as it was greenish. Normally you make paint brighter (cleaner color) than you need and then over days shade the batch to the correct color Think bright green and then make it drabish by adding black, red and yellow as needed.They would literally make the paint and ship it no matter if it met color specifications, especially for ground vehicles and gray for ships. This was in 42-43. by late 43 paint production had caught up and they were shipping out paint on color.

RichJohnson

According to that article by Steve Zoluga they did have a paint shortage early in the war during the OD no9 /22 years. The paint should be a lighter shade and have a brownish or pig slop color to it slightly off from a green tint. I have seen real parts painted in Qm no9 but by today they have darkened from handling and fading from UV etc etc.
In spectors he stated were pretty strict but did let close enough colors through. Yes there was more variance in the early years use of that paint.

The 319 color was the OD that was dark green and had a slight gloss. I read that as a satin type finish myself. While as the OD No9 was lusterless, meaning totally flat. I have seen some parts with this original color and many with restoration paints which often are not correct.

I would love to see what chips you have though the color of a computer screen will through them off. Try to photo them in daylight for best viewing of the color.

Crius

We went through this years ago in the static aircraft community and the one thing that everybody always forgets is this, you can paint whatever you want to paint, take that vehicle and run it around in the Sun for four or five months and then go back to the original can of paint that you used to paint it the first time and that paint won't match. Colors fade, that's just the way it is. What we came up with for aircraft was that if it looks good to you, that's all that really counts. I never had any problem with the regular testors model Master OD green and I have a good Supply so that's what I will continue to use until it runs out. If anybody ever tells me they don't like the color of the tank they will be answered in the best of Bart Simpson fashion, and told to eat my shorts.

Bwahahahahaha

Elwarpo

The other issue with color is metamerism. 2 color chips may look the same under one light source and completely different under another. For example sunlight, incandescent and fluorescent light will make colors change. During the 40s, most color matching at paint plants was done under incandescent or fluorescent light, and in sunlight, the colors will be different. Matching color now is even harder since LEDs give off very different spectral properties and appearance will definately change.

I can take pictures, and there are ways to calibrate screens. If you like you can send me painted color chips and I can compare them to the actual chips.

tankme

Once you weather your tank the paint shade will also change so for me if it's close and then weathered it's good enough... For some of the field applied camo, the tint can change a lot due to what they thinned the paint with (as in what was available on hand at the time).

Maccrage

Well, my order from MCW arrives tomorrow. I hope I ordered the lacquers, there wasn't anywhere that I could find that allowed me to choose.
I ordered their thinner, flat and semi gloss, although now I think I should have ordered the satin.

RichJohnson

The laquers are in their own catagory. They are gloss only.

Maccrage

All arrived safely, and are the correct lacquers.