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Warbird Racing on the East Coast

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Warbird Racing on the East Coast

Old 06-16-2016, 07:12 AM
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JeffH
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Default Warbird Racing on the East Coast

Are there any Warbird Races on the east coast? I would love to attend a couple and see how it all works.
A group of us in my club just bought the WM Spitfires and will be pseudo racing each other. Our field is not laid out right for official racing. We have the length, but one clump of trees would be right smack in the way entering the left(turn 2?) pylon. We could shift the pilots' stands down, but then we would be taking off 100 feet from ourselves.
I do have another field or two that we could use to hold a race, but it is a totally grass runway. How do these planes do on grass?
Old 06-16-2016, 07:50 AM
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Hi Jeff,
I'm happy to hear of folks in your area giving this a shot.
I'm possibly moving into the Culpeper/Fredricksberg area in the next year and planned to try and spark a fire for this style of pylon racing.
How far are you from that area?
All of the venues I've flown out of use paved runways.
The grass would have to be like a putting green and possibly require the use of larger wheels/tires on the models
Old 06-16-2016, 07:52 AM
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JeffH
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I am about 2-2.5 hours from you, well within racing distance.
If you do move, count me and prob 3-4 others as racers as well as labor for racedays.
Old 06-16-2016, 08:51 AM
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I'd like to invite you to have a look at the SAM's warbird racing rules, http://www.sacramento-rc-flyers.org/..._version_3.pdf.

The series we run in Sacramento and Redding is a very popular and well attended series of events.
We typically have more than 45 pilots spread out in the three classes per event.
You can see what I mean by looking at the current and past standings posted at the Sacramento Area Modelers web page.
http://www.sacramento-rc-flyers.org/...standings.html

This is just making my possible move out that direction even more attractive.
Old 06-17-2016, 08:52 AM
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The two grass fields near me are not not putting green but still pretty good. Smaller foamies can taxi on them. The only truly putting green surface that I know of is Triple Tree, home of the Joe Nall.

Paved runways are few and far between on the east coast. There are two in Northern VA/MD. The fields near Fredricksburg are all grass I do believe, but the two that I mentioned are not THAT far away from the 'Burg.

My field has a 180Ft Fiberglass mat runway, which would be fine but refer back to the comment about the pilots having to stand a good ways away from the runway due to trees. There is one club near me that has an asphalt runway, but they have a altitude restriction due to being close to an airport. Of course racers do not normally need much altitude!!
The other good part is that you are within 5-6 hours of Old Julian Airport in NC where they have a dedicated pylon site, but as far as I know, no Warbird racing yet.

Are the rules that you pointed me to the same that are being used at the Nats this year?
Old 06-17-2016, 06:58 PM
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Same but different.
They are using a kind of hybrid of the SAM's and the rcpro series out of the So-Cal/Arizona area.
Same course and breakout times.
They do the matrix different though.
The method of setup at SAM's allows for more of a chance to get a race against all the different pilots in your class.
The rcpro system of matrix setup means you race the same guys all day.
Old 06-17-2016, 08:15 PM
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Tommy, Your statement is not accurate. The RCPRO matrixing is as random as Sams is. I believe Sams draws from a hat ? RCPRO uses the computer to juggle the spots. Also with the RCPRO set up, You dont race the same guys all day. Not sure where this comment came from?? What the RCPRO system does is keeps you in the same lane all day, not racing the same guys all day. I raced Logan Shaw 3 times out of 5 at the last Redding race using your pull from a hat technique and lane changing . So Both systems are random and neither ensure you get a wider variety of racers. The biggest issue with the RCPRO matrixing is the heats are set at beginning of the event, and in the case of mid airs, or unrepairable damage you run the risk of a 1 or 2 plane heat, where the Sams system keeps the matrix full. . What we can do to correct this, is regenerate a matrix more often, rather than have just the one at beginning of the event and never alter it or change it.

As far as the Nats, we will utilize the computer generated matrix set up similar to most all NMPRA racing venues. We will also review this and make a new matrix if needed at the start of the new day to ensure heats are full.

I hope this answers your Nats question
Old 06-17-2016, 08:52 PM
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Just stating what my experience has been based on what I saw at the championship race in Fresno and earlier this year in Victorville. Once the computer generated the matrix and I placed the colored flag on the appropriate wing for my flight station, I raced the same people in each heat up until the final round.
Old 06-18-2016, 09:13 AM
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And as I stated no system ensures you never race the same guy twice, like what happened to me in Redding, 3 out of 5 heats I raced the same guy. The RCPRO/ Nats matrix doesnt make you race the same guys all day as you implied, though you might race some guys more often, the same as your guys system does. I merely stepped in to correct what you stated falsely to the guy asking. It can and might happen, but it isnt built in to the process. I didnt want him thinking he races the same 3 guys all day. Now if you have few gold pilots like at Victorville, and several ask to be team mates, then yea, no matter how you do it, youll be racing the same guys as there arent many to pull from and by placing 2 of those guys on a team, they will never race each other thus eliminating even more of the variation from the process.

Fact is the RCPRO system is as diverse as the Sams system- it's just a differnt process to the same end.

The biggest difference between Sams and RCPRO is the wing colors and lane assignment used in RCPRO, and tie breaker criteria.
Old 06-30-2016, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JeffH
The two grass fields near me are not not putting green but still pretty good. Smaller foamies can taxi on them. The only truly putting green surface that I know of is Triple Tree, home of the Joe Nall.

Paved runways are few and far between on the east coast. There are two in Northern VA/MD. The fields near Fredricksburg are all grass I do believe, but the two that I mentioned are not THAT far away from the 'Burg.

My field has a 180Ft Fiberglass mat runway, which would be fine but refer back to the comment about the pilots having to stand a good ways away from the runway due to trees. There is one club near me that has an asphalt runway, but they have a altitude restriction due to being close to an airport. Of course racers do not normally need much altitude!!
The other good part is that you are within 5-6 hours of Old Julian Airport in NC where they have a dedicated pylon site, but as far as I know, no Warbird racing yet.

Are the rules that you pointed me to the same that are being used at the Nats this year?
No, the rules that are being used at the NATs are not "exactly" the same as the SAMs rules.

The SAMs rules are what have been used in the NorCal area for quite awhile and with great success in participation and satisfaction of the competitors.

I will be flying out there next month after our July 3st race, for a face to face with the folks at the new facility where I may be working soon.

Have you done any leg work to find out if any of the local clubs would be willing to support such an event out there yet.
If a small foamie can fly off the grass, then a warbird racer with normal wheels should be fine.
Old 06-30-2016, 08:21 AM
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I have to agree with Tommy somewhat here. Look at the math. Let's say that you have 20 guys in a particular class. There can only be 4 flight groups. This means the each pilot has 3 guys in his class that he has no opportunity to race. Multiply that 3 guys times 20 contestants and you end up with 60 heat races that are taken out of the random selection process.
Old 06-30-2016, 02:01 PM
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Actually if you team up with someone, you wouldnt race that person and that leaves 3 guys out of the event you wont race, if there were enough rounds run. That means you would eventually race 15 out of 20 guys. How is that a bad thing? Seriously guys that is the way it should be. Even with the Sams way of names pulled from a hat, chances of racing a better variety are less likely. I'll say it again, several times using the system at Sams Series, I race the same guys.
Point of the reply from me was that it was stated Tommy raced at the Fresno race, and other RCPRO races the same guys in every heat, which according to our records isnt accurate. I can post if you'd like.
I just dont want misinformation given that paints a bad light on the Nats race.
No system other than purposely picking guys is gonna give you more of a chance to race a variety.
The big issue with what we use for the Nats is two fold
1. When the matrix is made at the beginning of an event, and if there are a lot of pilots dropping out, you get smaller heat numbers of pilots. - but this can be fixed by redoing the Matrix at the beginning of each day.
- but in doing this it makes you reidentify your wing color, and opens the door for you to re race some of the guys you did the previous day, that normally you wouldnt.
2. If you have less than 7 pilots, similar to what Tommy experienced at Victorville, then yes, you will race the same guys more often. But how would a random draw from the hat change that?
Old 06-30-2016, 03:29 PM
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Marty, at SAM's you have a random draw with everyone's names in the hat. If you end up racing the same guys that was just the way the luck played out. With the Nats format it is exactly the same thing except for each pilot the "draw" has 3 less names in the hat provided a field of 20. No matter how you slice it, the Nats format is not as random as SAM's.

As as far as your " not a bad thing " if you and I are in the same flight group and at the end of the day we have the same points but you had a cut, I win. Wouldn't you have preferred an opportunity to beat me in the air? I realize at any given race I am not going to race everybody in my class. Although I have come very close to do so in the past but why reduce the odds even more? I understand what you are trying to do here and that is provide a format that has already been run at the Nats and people racing Q40, Q500 and EF1 are familiar with in hopes of making Warbird more attractive and making it easier on the staff. I just hope you are successful in getting those guys to cross over. I know the format was a turn off for some guys, me included that could have been a contributing factor in not going to the Nats. Obviously not the only thing but one of them.
Old 06-30-2016, 04:02 PM
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Shawn,
I appreciate your opinion and input. The reason for using what I am using is not to draw pilots in. It is a very good system in my opinion, and thats why I use it. I am familiar with it in Q40, Q500, RCPRO, and Club racing. The "draw from hat" has no appeal to me, as I stated earlier, cause I often race some of the same guys at those events any way. I have been to 6 West Coast races and if I remember correctly you and I have only raced 1 time. At Redding, my first year, I raced one of the Shaw boys 2 times and Mick twice. Then Again this year, Shaw 3 times again. It really doesnt matter to me as long as I have a fair chance to win. Its gonna happen that you race the same guys at the "Draw from a hat" system. But with the computer generated system, names get shuffled in an algorythm set that keeps pilots shuffled properly.

My response to this thread was for this reason: The Nats system does NOT make you race the same guys in every heat.
That is why I replied.
Im not here to argue who has the better system. I love the Sams races, the rules and especially the people who work so hard to make them great events.
My argument was with what was incorrectly stated about the Nats race/matrix system.

As far as me and you being tied, that wont happen, you dont show up to the races any way
lol
My point again is no system is gonna get you 100% variety, in fact no even your Sams system, as far as I have seen, doesnt do what the other system does.
Old 06-30-2016, 04:17 PM
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Wow, I miss one NorCal race in 5 years and now Im labeled as a no show LOL. Next time I have 34 stitches in my hand Im racing anyways.
Old 06-30-2016, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Wow, I miss one NorCal race in 5 years and now Im labeled as a no show LOL. Next time I have 34 stitches in my hand Im racing anyways.
See now you are thinking like a real racer, way to go, I knew you could do it.
lol
I did miss you. When I heard you werent going to make it, I thought maybe a Pattern contest or something.
Old 06-30-2016, 09:33 PM
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No I was unfortunate enough to to get an anyrism in my hand and had to have an artery removed. I did fly a soaring contest that weekend but I thought it best not to try flying a 150 mph pylon airplane 20 feet off the deck having those stitches removed just a couple days prior. It's been a busy season so far in spite of the hand issue. I'm proud to say that so far this season I have placed in soaring, IMAC and Pattern. Here in Sac on July 31 I need to place to make my goal.
Old 07-01-2016, 11:56 AM
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Please allow me to try and clarify some misunderstandings about the matrix generation which will be used at the NATS.

First off, there is nothing random about it. It follows the same principal as the rolling matrix used for the other forms of AMA Rulebook racing, (i.e., 422, 426, etc.). This can be better seen by going to pages 23 and 24 of the AMA RC Pylon Racing competition regs.
https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/...ylonRacing.pdf

The last I heard, there were 19 registered pilots in the Gold class for the NATS so using the software I ran a matrix for 19 entries. The matrix was generated for 6 rounds of racing and instead of names I assigned each pilot a number, (P1, P2 and so on), just like it is in the AMA regs. This was done assuming there are no conflicts nor anyone calling for each other, just a straight up deal. If you look at the attached images, you can see that up through the 5th round, no one races the same person twice. It's only until you get to the 6th round does anyone race the same person again and even then, it is not a direct repeat of any other heat. This is due strictly to the number of entries and rounds flown. So, the matrix as shown here, which will be just the same at the NATS, would indicate that with 19 entries, there are 4 people plus yourself running in the same lane so that leaves 14 other people in the class. Using this scenario, you are guaranteed to race all 14 others over the course of 5 rounds. It will of course be less if we go less than 5 rounds but in that case you would definitely not race the same person twice. Keep in mind that this is all done by the computer and the only real difference being that if two pilots are on the same channel, (to insure pilot and caller never race each other if requested), the pilot numbering would change but the format would stay the same.

[ATTACH]2170645[/IMG] [ATTACH]2170646[/IMG]

If it turns out that through the event there is some attrition or pilots are DQ'd or otherwise can't race, or, if it is decided to shake things up a bit, the ability is built into the system to re-run the matrix and move pilots to different lanes if need be. However, to keep things moving along I don't think we would want to be doing this unless it is necessary. This would require a few of the pilots to change wing colors and could possibly result in a caller and pilot racing each other, but no matter what it can all be handled. This image below shows the same information as above but assumes that rounds 1 through 3 have been completed and the matrix was re-done for the beginning of round 4. This can be done a number of different ways and could be done to have all the pilots who started in the same lane race each other, but by doing this it also could work out to where you do end up racing the same pilot more than once even more so than by leaving it as is through the whole event.

[ATTACH]2170777[/IMG]
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Last edited by tsawyer148; 07-01-2016 at 12:22 PM.
Old 07-07-2016, 03:32 PM
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So, JeffH,
Are any of the flying fields out there OK with high nitro, straight piped YS four strokes for the sound levels?

I understand having muffler requirements for normal sports flying planes.
I am hoping that folks out there will be understanding when it comes to the sound levels emitted by our racers during testing and racing.
Old 07-07-2016, 04:00 PM
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JeffH
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Noise is not generally a problem at the fields local to me. Two of the potential fields that I am thinking of are in the middle of nowhere. In the Fredericksburg area, I do now know what their rules/noises limits are. I know they fly plenty of giant scale warbirds and turbines which are not quiet.
Old 07-07-2016, 05:04 PM
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That sounds promising.
I'll be out there the first week of next month up in the Orange/Culpeper area.
I won't have any time for RC stuff. The time we have there is fully scheduled.
What is the general attitude of the folks you know at the fields you fly at, towards fire breathing fast and loud RC warbirds?
Old 07-07-2016, 05:26 PM
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In general, most are just fine. I have flown open header YS 120 for a few years. Several of us have Ballistic Pattern type planes, the ones before noise became job 1.
Of course, all clubs have the grumpy old men, but honestly, I do not think noise and racing would be a problem around my neck of the woods.
F-burg...you would have to feel that out locally there.

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